Date: 06/04/2013 6:19 PM Title: Chapter 1
I spent the time from original screening at age 12 to aged 51 agreeing with your premise i would have but considered the idea of K/S sacrelige. But i changed my position after reading fan fic and then re watching. My view is that there was a deliberate attempt to create ambiguity If not by the originator of the show certainly by the actors and definitely by script writers. The Sci fi of the time was about strange new worlds and turning perception about face. This wasnt female fan fic but scripts from male writers who were pushing the boundaries.
But I agree you don't need the cannon to agree with Fanon fit is more important that a fic have good plot and good writing. For me that means putting two females in and it NOT working because I prefer strong realistically male characters rather than femthat's sed ideals of the ultimate relationship. I would say its more important ito be a skilled writer and turning K and S into Mary Sues or our ideal relationship material. Furthermore like yourself I would rather have authenticity. Friends forever just papers over the fact their friendship fLoundered and they disagreed and fell out more than once. My Kirk and Spock head cannon favours them making a complete balls up of things, that is real life.
What I feel is important is that fic readers and writers respect that we all float on different boats, a fan fic ship i is individual and there is no one correct view. K/S is just one universe of many And our individual versions are just that, personal to ourselves.Telling others how to think is just wrong beat just to enjoy!
Date: 04/12/2013 7:35 AM Title: Chapter 1
Again, you should not use reboot canon to prove or disprove TOS canon when Abrams has emphasised that it's an alternative reality hence him taking some liberties with a number of things.
This is my confusion over the alternative reality. I understand a different set of events created a different set of circumstances and thus an alternative reality. One of these differences is apparently having Spock be in a relationship with Uhura. But on memory Alpha it uses the phrase "Spock maintained a relationship with Uhura". Abrams may have created the alternative reality to avoid continuity issues, but is he saying here that Spock already had a relationship with Uhura BEFORE the timelines split? And that the difference is that he MAINTAINS a relationship with Uhura in the reboot reality. So, basically he's saying that Spock and Uhura before the first season of TOS were in a relationship. That still seems like he's messing with the original timeline to me. What part of Uhura going up to Spock in The Man Trap and attempting, unsuccessfully, to flirt with him indicates that they were ever even that close? Not to mention she says something along the lines of "Kirk is the closest thing you have to a friend". Doesn't really seem like ex-girlfriend talk.
Also, I don't think anybody is denying that Spock and Uhura are involved romantically in the 2009 film. Questioning the validity or relevence of it is a different thing.
Date: 03/20/2013 6:06 AM Title: Chapter 1
It doesn't make sense to use the reboot to prove or disprove TOS canon. It is an alternative reality. Hence, why Spock shows no interest in Uhura in TOS and is apparently in some degree of a romantic relationship with her in Abrams' reboot. Also, as far as the way they look at each other goes, well, yeah, but Kirk and Spock stare at each other a lot too. And for some reason, people rarely see that as romantic. But with a guy and girl it's automatically seen as romantic (Yes, I realise they kiss).
Date: 04/07/2010 3:38 AM Title: Chapter 1
I grew up with Star Trek TOS. For over 40 years I never thought about Kirk and Spock as a romantic couple. I only became a believer that it was possible they were "in love" with each other as more than friends, brothers, comrades, devoted to each other without reservation, in the past year, essentially since the new movie came out and I began to explore what was on various websites about it. That search eventually led me to this and other K/S sites, including YouTube fanvids. And I was convinced there was much more between them, as Roddenberry intended but did not dare show too blatantly.
Bottomline, whether in my original estimation of them as just two people who cared deeply for each other with no sex or two people who cared deeply for each other with sex, it doesn't really matter to me. In the end, however you want to define "the end" since I'm not sure these two will ever have an "end", they built a long-term, complex but satisfying relationship we'd probably all like to have, with a member or the opposite sex or not, sexual or not. And that intrigues me, probably for the rest of my life. I can just see it now, someday I'll be in a nursing home, still cruising the K/S websites for more stories because it makes me happy.
My point exactly :-) I may not believed the two of them were originally meant as a couple, but I do like reading love stories about them sometimes, as long as they are well written, and I don't see what's wrong with that.
Date: 04/07/2010 1:53 AM Title: Chapter 1
I don't have the time to read this all right now, but I've read part of it, and I just want to let you know that I kind of agree with you, but not quite. I don't think K/S is canon (i.e. that the series/movies explicitly make it clear that they're a couple), and based on what happens in the episodes, I don't think it's plausible that they're together during the series.
I do, however, think it's plausible that they get together sometime during the movies (I'm picturing at the end of TMP or between TMP and Wrath of Khan). You mentioned that Spock was brought back in Search for Spock because of the fans; yes, probably, but that doesn't have anything to do with canon. What happens in the movie does. And to me, that movie seems like one big love story, except we still don't get any irrefutable proof that they're a couple.
So to me, it's not canon that they're a couple, but I don't consider it canon that they're not, either. Canon simply does not specify this and leaves it open for us to interpret - which we do (and both interpretations might be plausible to different people, but IMO, neither of them should be confused with "canon").
In any case, one of the good things about fan fiction is that we can write things that aren't canon (fan fiction would be pretty boring, after all, if we could only write about the exact events that happen in canon).
That was precisely what I wanted to point out. Canon is one thing, fanfiction is another. Fanfictions can be great stories, while some of the TOS episodes were rotten. But there actually is no really significant clue in either series, movies or books that would indeed *prove* anything. They don't talk about love, they don't kiss, they don't live together; they don't even hug, although they are good friends.
If they were together after TOS, or after The Motion Picture, there is absolutely no canon evidence to that. Of course, there also is nothing to actually prove that they never were together. But this leaves much space for interpretation and speculation. What the viewer respectively reader believes is, in the end, up to him or to her.
Date: 04/06/2010 2:25 PM Title: Chapter 1
K/S is just a ship like any other and you are definitely entitled to whatever you believe, but the fact that you came to a web site dedicated to the K/S ship to post an essay about how wrong the idea of K/S as canon is looks to me like you're just flame baiting.
If you want a test, it’s quite easy; just take one of the fanfictions and replace either Kirk or Spock by a female character. The fanfiction quite easily turns out to be a more or less adroit disguise for a love story the - usually female - writer would have liked to experience herself. But I’m warning you, I would recommend you not to really try: some of the stories become not only boring, but also turn pathetic to the point of ridiculous. I rarely do, except when I come across a story that is indeed absolute trash.
And until today, I don't see what's wrong with accepting that these two were never meant to be in love, and to let your fantasies free and read (well written) love stories about them anyway.
Date: 04/06/2010 11:02 AM Title: Chapter 1
The Original Series of Star Trek aired from September 1966 until 3rd June 1966...your argument is invalid ;)
Well, three seasons certainly weren't packed all in one year. I guess you mean from 66 to 68 (my fault, sorry). But that's not the point, my point was that the series was thought up, written and directed in the Sixties, and that it was only some years later that it became legendary.
Date: 04/06/2010 9:01 AM Title: Chapter 1
I respectfully disagree :). Actually, some time ago I also didn't consider K/S canon, but I think I do now - or rather, to be precise, I consider it a very plausible possibility. I think that this relationship and its dynamics can be easily interpreted both ways and I'm certain it was intended as such. I have neither time nor vast enough knowledge of TOS to deal with your theses one by one (I'd love to, out of my respect for you, but I'm sure someone is going to do that :)), but let me ask one question - why do you think that Spock was in love with Leila or Zarabeth? I certainly didn't see love there - OK, I saw great (and caused by time discrepancy) passion in case of Zarabeth, but passion doesn't necessarily equal love. As to Leila - hm, love based on totally drugged state of mind of one's lover (OK, both, but she loved him before) probably cannot last too long. I think that in his state he could've been equally deeply in love with e.g. bunnies, had there been any bunnies instead of Leila on Omicron Ceti III. When Spock was sober, he couldn't get rid of her fast enough - at least I think so.
Physical or not (and, actually, I think, probably not physical - yet :)-in TOS), I do see love, not just deep friendship, between Spock and Kirk. And I consider myself not very susceptible for wishful thinking :).
Well, I remember the episodes quite well, and I am sure Spock did love both women. After the spores set his emotions free, he said "I can love you", which clearly meant he had wished to unleash his feelings for Leila before and had not dared. As for Zarabeth, he wanted to keep her by his side, left her with deep regret, and back in his time mourned the fact that she now was dead.
The point is, much more importantly, Spock's characterization during these love affairs. Both women, it turns out, are deeply emotional, but also dishonest and manipulating. Once he finds out about it, he still feels something for them, but nevertheless leaves them behind. That's why I do belive that pairing him off with Kirk would make sense: Kirk is emotional, but he also is fair. And Kirk himself is unsettled, he would need someone like Spock to get his feet on the ground. That's why I like to read k/s, though I refuse to believe that the original stories ever meant them to be together. As they say: "De gustibus..." :-)